strategy. >> that is the clefiest ticker i ever hear in my life. go to the immircified and can get excellent return and you can see it over long periods of time. >> you argue that you can. >> here's the thing. so many pime are dumping the at least get a tone of water. and so this hold picnic is rather a moot point. >> i want to thank all of you for joining us and have a very merry christmas and is david asbin our gift to you on forbes on fox. a holy war over the health care of the law.

little sisters may be bolting out of the united states because of the the new law is forcing them to provide insurance can contraception and if they don't get exceptions, they will have to pony up big fines. welcome to forbes on fox and we'll go with steve forbes and rick unger and elizabeth mcdonald and victoria and steve and rich. >> what do you think? >> jobs are going to be destroid even if they don't go overseas. health care costs are goi up. obama care is increasing alert . insurers have to take all comers and that will put a strain on it and mandates, consumers may not want them and politicians say you must have them and insurance costs are going up and we the people will be losers. and the hobby lobby face a fine 1. 5 million if they

don't dohat the government said they have to do via the health care law. >> i was corrected. 1.3 million a day. that is the daily fine they have to pay. >> let's make an important distunction we are notuve for dinner bets. mipemine is open for the anybody who doesn't think they will get exempted. i think it is. they have been giving health care to the employees over in the charity for years. theirob ligation is not health care, but it is a religious problem and it is going to be dealt w. i hope that the corporions in the country will take a lesson and understand the importance of health care to employees insteaof cutting hours. >> and emac. hobby lobe just received notice from the court this

week that they are not going to get an exception and they face a 1.3 million fine every day that they don't adhere to the practices that they abhor. >> that is it bad. this is a high cost of affordable care. the nuns may have to cut health insurance. but the people are quickly turning in the favor factory that the tax code and. this is driving businesses over ss and no one is reading that 3.7 million words . same in obama care and no one read it through. energy and job hits and energy . even health care industry. medical device trea and restaurant industry. businesses are saying it is so unweldy and so many bad things popping out . we have to protect the bottom line and make sure we preserve the job cuts we can.

>> whether they're for or nonprofit a lot of people can't afford to keep up with what it force them to do. >> and one consultant survey said 50 percent will pass it along to the employees. we can likely see higher cost in health care . that is not what it promised. you mentioned that the nuns will get an exception or exception. what is the difference between the nuns who serve a lot of noncatholic people and a lot of noncatholics who work for them . what is the difference between them and a business owner who is strongly catholic and serves noncatholics and didn't offer conacceptions . >> there is a huge difference. one is religious organization and thether selling model airplanes in the retail

stores. >> nuns are hiring workers and not just a religious. butine dan holdings which isthey are saying they are going to lay off you have the man date tax and companies pulling back on insurance because of obama care. that hits a doubley for the middle class and they have to buy their own insurance and pay if they don't get it >> bottom line with the hobby lobby it is a private company but if they care about their beliefs and totally disagree with what the health care law is forcing them to cover . that's why they may go out of business. if they have to pay the fines, it will hurt the bottom line terribly. >> david obama care was not designed to save money. it need said a huge tax increase to fund it it is it a path of socialized medicine and all of the destruction and

that is why unions and companis and employees are trying to optout of it it was a lousy piece of. that is truven to be terrible. that's what obama cares about. rick's good friend to bey cross grove was saying in the wall street journal. probably what it will lead to is a singer payer rule of socialized medicine. >> absolutely. i don't doubt it >> rich? >> i don't doubthat for a minute. obama care is doing and paralyzing growth among small businesses. you will see all kinds of businesses finding out magically 49 employees rather than 50 is the number of

full-time people they want and the rest work 28 hours and the other aspect, large companies are going to make working and onerous and they're monitoring all of your health care. it is not if you smoke it is your wght and glucose and your blood pressure. this is it going to be the cost of working at a large company as they try to drive down the insurance obligation. >> is this going to cost jobs? >> of course it will. health care is the cost of employee and reason why cash wages haven't gone up. explosion of health care costs and it makes it worse. like the soviet union. the food was free but you couldn't get any. >> all of the chaos with the sea of exchanges and business levels. you can have washington d.c.

stepping in and more federal innervention than we have right now . with all of the stuff. pet projects and in a way to help victims of super storm sandy. was a big scare but no

injuries. here we go again. a bill intended to aid super storm sandy victims . this has spending hawks peeves. explain your flip side. >> i have no problem but i will say it is more important to thwart than haggle in congress. i live in loir manhattan and we have seen problems with super storm sandy. we have businesses that are close not reopening and this is happening in areas hit by the storm. the vital thing is to get the money flowing and more important than congress hagsling. snurkswe need to swallow pork to get what we need. >> no, we don't. you look at sandy spending bill if dc got hit and not new york or new jersey . two weeks after cat can the

hit the new orleans area. that area got money. we are still waiting because it is hung up by pork. you are seeing 3 billion to pair or fix and new cars for the fbi and new trees in cemeteries and silly things like that. it is pretty bad. this could pass on its own merits. i am not f nationalizing why do you need pork to pass the bill? >> why do you need the pork? >> it is important to put all mischief in one bill and keep an eye on it load it up. >> you think it will make a difference. >> put allast payola and i am not as cynical as steve forbes is about what legislators can do in a situation like this with an engineer. i think half of the money might not be wasted. >> i don't know. victoria, it sounds cynical to

me. >> igree with bill. i think we should have an annual pork bill . that's how hurricane sandy bill doesn't git loaded it is an awful thing . so set it aside and do it every year and let them duke it out but not stuff it in other place. . >> john is it okay. >> no, it is not okay. no one wlote against the hurricane sandy bill and so things that were unrelated n to it is put inside it and 80 or 90 years ago we did not followize the disaster. we would make sure they didn't do corrupt act to get it through. if you want to see more of

this. keep having washington pay fors that are tragicnd local. >> is that the point whene federalize with fema and other agencies and that's when the trouble came in and when everybody loads the pork in. >> it is not only the disaster bills. any bill that gets clearance from congress they load tup with junk. obama may call it stimulus but it is it pork. >> emac knows this well and it was there on seatism it is awful. >> in uation like that. block grant the money to the states and see what the needs are and go to it. >> mgan what about that idea. >> you need to get out of congress and away from the red tape. >> emac you are there practically every day since the struck. >> federal aid still hasn't arrived. >> they are without

electricity and see this turn into an unseemly food fight is discouraging and indictive and the senate hasn't passed a budget . secret gain of six and it is silliness . i hear john tammy . you do federalize and encourage waste and that stalls. >> john, this may turn into a great study of why the feds are getting involved and we should go the direction steve was saying. >> this would be wowhy the federal government's involvement in legal things leads to disaster. >> people would elect more carefully locally if they knew it was theirs rather than to be paid for by everybody else.

>> have a very merry christmas at mickey d's. this big mac maker fair or a grinch? first right here, new fears of another taxpayer bailout . millions was workers may need you to pony up before pensions goes pust u bust. we'll e e e e e

just as the government is

getting out of the gm bailout. new worries about a new bail out. the head of the agency that over sees bankrupt pension warning congress he may need 30 billion to shore up the funs. that's why they should switch to 401 k's. >> whether politicians or unions and employers making promises they can't keep. you reap what you put in a 401 k . if you make a grand promise and you don't put the money in. everyone know its is false . so let's have honesty and when you are promised something you will know you git it >> a lot of people with 401 k's are doing well >> i remember as a young lawyer writing the pedestrian irfirst plan where we had high hopes that forminglet mumenty corporation pension plan you would have smart trustees running them and they would make money. they lost money and it doesn't

matter if you have your own plan if you lose money. >> and looks like the taxpayers is forced to bail out the pension. >> look apt the detroit council woman told president obama. it is quid proquo. you should bail us out . take the politics out when it comes to public employees . municipality. it doesn't guarantee a huge return but shows paid that money is paid every year and not a caze crazy promise in the future that is not coming true in the future. >> what i like about 401 k. it more discretion to the individual. they decide what is best or not for him. what if the individual wants a classic benefit pension. i wouldn't outlaw the pensions

but i would outlaw the bailouts. if they want to lay out lavish to the pilots but don't come to me when it doesn't work out. >> i don't think rich, you know how these things develop and start out by interested independent and gets money from insurance companies and et cetera . eventually the taxpayer has to bail these things out. >> you can't suspend the law of gravity and suspend the speed of light and predetermine the returns for a retirement fund and defoined pension if they're not there. the market is paying low yeemeds on bonds and the stock market may be going through a bad match. you have to base these things on reality and better way to make people go to 401's . limit the option thape have.

they will not get great returns but lose their money either. >> better returns than what social secury is doing. >> this way, too, sensible rules of the game and if you want to retire at 59 you can want none oflet one size fits all. each individual has their wants and needs . >> this is a nice chris nas segment. even rich is nodding his head. we have the solution. >> our informers are synding santa to steve's house. but will he like the presence or is it ape lump of coal. find out next. ♪ have yourself a merry little christmas.

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>> we worry back and santa informers came bearing gifts for steve forbes but will he like the gift. first to emac. magelon midstream partners and this company moves fuel around. >> that's right. they had the biggest pipe line system in the united states with acess to refining capacity. this is a big player. >> steve hold up the stocking you can stuff your stocking with magelan. >> yes, yes. this one i wou, david. i think we are going to need

more and more energy and the good thing we'll have energy boom and high prices and productions and got a yield of above zero percent. i am don't put it in the 401 k. it is immensely complicated for tax purposes. put it in your personal portfolio. >> you know he is a kid at heart. >> in this case, it might mean his grand daughters. give them barbie dolls and staple tit a share of matel stock. 10 most annoying toys out there and matel didn't have any of them. >> steve, you like marxtel. >> toys are nice and bill is right. it has a yield of 3.3 percent . that is like 30 percent in olden